You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More (#646) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss 3 Annual "Best of" Apple Podcasts 900+ Million episodes downloaded It's arguably not the case in the third century. So throughout the book, you make the point that ancient beer and wine are not like our beer and wine. I mean, what-- my big question is, what can we say about the Eucharist-- and maybe it's just my weird lens, but what can we say about it definitively in the absence of the archaeochemstry or the archaeobotany? And it was the Jesuits who encouraged me to always, always ask questions and never take anything at face value. Maybe part of me is skeptical, right? I appreciate this. So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. There's some suggestive language in the pyramid texts, in the Book of the Dead and things of this nature. This notion in John 15:1, the notion of the true vine, for example, only occurs in John. And that's the mysteries of Dionysus. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving And for some reason, I mean, I'd read that two or three times as an undergrad and just glossed over that line. With more than 35 years of experience in the field of Education dedicated to help students, teachers and administrators in both public and private institutions at school, undergraduate and graduate level. Is taking all these disciplines, whether it's your discipline or archaeochemistry or hard core botany, biology, even psychopharmacology, putting it all together and taking a look at this mystery, this puzzle, using the lens of psychedelics as a lens, really, to investigate not just the past but the future and the mystery of human consciousness. And I offer psychedelics as one of those archaic techniques of ecstasy that seems to have been relevant and meaningful to our ancestors. And I'm not even sure what that piece looks like or how big it is. So that, actually, is the key to the immortality key. You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. What's the wine? But we do know that the initiates made this pilgrimage from Athens to Eleusis, drunk the potion, the kykeon, had this very visionary event-- they all talk about seeing something-- and after which they become immortal. If you die before you die, you won't die when you die. And she talks about the visions that transformed the way she thinks about herself. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. But unfortunately, it doesn't connect it to Christianity. 55 This is very likely as it seems that the process had already started in the 4th century. Now, let's get started, Brian. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. And then that's the word that Euripides uses, by the way. Part 1 Brian C. Muraresku: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and the Hallucinogenic Origins of Religion - Feb 22, 2023 So we not only didn't have the engineering know-how-- we used to think-- we didn't have even settled life to construct something like this. And for those of you who have found my line of questioning or just my general presence tedious, first of all, I fully appreciate that reaction. That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. We see lots of descriptions of this in the mystical literature with which you're very familiar. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. And I got to say, there's not a heck of a lot of eye rolling, assuming people read my afterword and try to see how careful I am about delineating what is knowable and what is not and what this means for the future of religion. Where you find the grain, you may have found ergot. So this whole water to wine thing was out there. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. It's interesting that Saint Ignatius of Antioch, in the beginning of the second century AD, refers to the wine of the Eucharist as the [SPEAKING GREEK], the drug of immortality. It is not psychedelics. In 1950, Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote " The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity " which describes the continuity from the Pagan, pre-Christian world to what would become early Christianity in the decades and centuries before Jesus Religion & Mystical Experiences, Wine I mean, shouldn't everybody, shouldn't every Christian be wondering what kind of wine was on that table, or the tables of the earliest Christians? They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. It's not just Cana. BRIAN MURARESKU:: It's a simple formula, Charlie. Before I set forth the outline of this thesis, three topics must be discussed in order to establish a basic understanding of the religious terminology, Constantine's reign, and the contemporary sources. And I, for one, look forward to a time when I can see him in person for a beer, ergotized beer or not, if he ever leaves Uruguay. If you look at Dioscorides, for example, his Materia Medica, that's written in the first century AD around the same time that the Gospels themselves are being written. And I wonder and I question how we can keep that and retain that for today. Brought to you by Let's move to early Christian. And now we have a working hypothesis and some data to suggest where we might be looking. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? And it was their claim that when the hymn to Demeter, one of these ancient records that records, in some form, the proto-recipe for this kykeon potion, which I call like a primitive beer, in the hymn to Demeter, they talk about ingredients like barley, water, and mint. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. This time, tonight I'll say that it's just not my time yet. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. But if the original Eucharist were psychedelic, or even if there were significant numbers of early Christians using psychedelics like sacrament, I would expect the representatives of orthodox, institutional Christianity to rail against it. First, the continuity of the offices must be seen in light of the change of institutional charges; they had lost their religious connotations and had become secular. The Tim Ferriss Show. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. And in his book [? And to be quite honest, I'd never studied the ancient Greeks in Spain. Examine the pros and cons of the continuity theory of aging, specifically in terms of how it neglects to consider social institutions or chronically ill adults. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. Nazanin Boniadi So there's a house preserved outside of Pompeii, preserved, like so much else, under the ash of Mount Vesuvius's eruption in the year 79 of the Common Era. And at the same time, when I see a thirst, especially in young people, for real experience, and I see so many Catholics who do not believe in transubstantiation, obviously, what comes to my mind is how, if at all, can psychedelics enhance faith or reinvent Christianity. Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. And I think we're getting there. And there were gaps as well. So can you reflect on the-- standing on the threshold of pharmaceutical companies taking control of this, how is that to be commended when the very people who have kept this alive would be pushed to the side in that move? What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? 40:15 Witches, drugs, and the Catholic Church . Now you're a good sport, Brian. I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. I'm not. And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. CHARLES STANG: OK, that is the big question. What was discovered, as far as I can tell, from your treatment of it, is essentially an ancient pharmacy in this house. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. That was the question for me. So it's hard for me to write this and talk about this without acknowledging the Jesuits who put me here. You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. These-- that-- Christians are spread out throughout the eastern Mediterranean, and there are many, many pockets of people practicing what we might call, let's just call it Christian mysticism of some kind. Administration and supervision endeavors and with strong knowledge in: Online teaching and learning methods, Methods for Teaching Mathematics and Technology Integration for K-12 and College . This book by Brian Muraresku, attempts to answer this question by delving into the history of ancient secret religions dating back thousands of years. And so in the epilogue, I say we simply do not know the relationship between this site in Spain and Eleusis, nor do we know what was happening at-- it doesn't automatically mean that Eleusis was a psychedelic rite. So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More by The Tim Ferriss Show I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. 13,000 years old. And the big question for me was what was that something else? Again, how did Christianity take hold in a world with such a rich mystical tradition? It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. It was a pilgrimage site. So I'm not convinced that-- I think you're absolutely right that what this establishes is that Christians in southern Italy could have-- could have had access to the kinds of things that have been recovered from that drug farm, let's call it. The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. That there is no hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data for spiked beer, spiked wine. And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. I mean, this is what I want to do with some of my remaining days on this planet, is take a look at all these different theories. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. So I spent 12 years looking for that data, eventually found it, of all places, in Catalonia in Spain in this 635-page monograph that was published in 2002 and for one reason or another-- probably because it was written in Catalan-- was not widely reported to the academic community and went largely ignored. And that's where oversight comes in handy. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? Because even though it's a very long time ago, Gobekli Tepe, interestingly, has some things in common with Eleusis, like the worship of the grain, the possibility of brewing, the notion of a pilgrimage, and interaction with the dead. We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. So Brian, welcome. The universality of frontiers, however, made the hypothesis readily extendable to other parts of the globe. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. And then at some point they go inland. Because for many, many years, you know, Ruck's career takes a bit of a nosedive. I know that that's a loaded phrase. And if the latter, do you think there's a good chance that religions will adopt psychedelics back into their rituals?". So that's from Burkert, a very sober scholar and the dean of all scholarship on Greek religion. There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. From about 1500 BC to the fourth century AD, it calls to the best and brightest of not just Athens but also Rome. The whole reason I went down this rabbit hole is because they were the ones who brought this to my attention through the generosity of a scholarship to this prep school in Philadelphia to study these kinds of mysteries. To sum up the most exciting parts of the book: the bloody wine of Dionysius became the bloody wine of Jesus - the pagan continuity hypothesis - the link between the Ancient Greeks of the final centuries BC and the paleo-Christians of the early centuries AD - in short, the default psychedelic of universal world history - the cult of . And the quote you just read from Burkert, it's published by Harvard University Press in 1985 as Greek Religion. All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. So why do you think psychedelics are so significant that they might usher in a new Reformation? CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More And keep in mind that we'll drop down into any one of these points more deeply. Interesting. I mean, about 25 years ago, actually. I see a huge need and a demand for young religious clergy to begin taking a look at this stuff. We have plays like the Bacchi from Euripides, where we can piece together some of this. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. And we know from the record that [SPEAKING GREEK] is described as being so crowded with gods that they were easier to find than men. Thank you. I'm sure he knows this well, by this point. So what do we know about those rituals? This time around, we have a very special edition featuring Dr. Mark Plotkin and Brian C . Who were the Saints? And so I don't know what a really authentic, a really historic-looking ritual that is equal parts sacred, but also, again, medically sound, scientifically rigorous, would look like. So imagine how many artifacts are just sitting in museums right now, waiting to be tested. No one lived there. What Brian labels the religion with no name. Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? I know that's another loaded phrase. Psychedelics Today: PTSF 35 (with Brian Muraresku) Griffithsfund.org Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . You can see that inscribed on a plaque in Saint Paul's monastery at Mount Athos in Greece. The kind of mysticism I've always been attracted to, like the rule of Saint Benedict and the Trappist monks and the Cistercian monks. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. And her answer was that they'd all been cleaned or treated for conservation purposes. I think the wine certainly does. Wonderful, well, thank you. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. And I'm trying to reconcile that. So somewhere between 1% and 49%. CHARLES STANG: OK. Not because they just found that altar. So that's something else to look into. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Or maybe in palliative care. So how to put this? So I'm trying to build the case-- and for some reason in my research, it kept coming back to Italy and Rome, which is why I focus on Hippolytus. The continuity hypothesis of dreams suggests that the content of dreams are largely continuous with waking concepts and concerns of the dreamer. And anyone who drinks this, [SPEAKING GREEK], Jesus says in Greek, you remain in me and I in you. BRIAN MURARESKU: I would say I've definitely experienced the power of the Christ and the Holy Spirit. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. That's all just fancy wordplay. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! And when we know so much about ancient wine and how very different it was from the wine of today, I mean, what can we say about the Eucharist if we're only looking at the texts? I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. The most influential religious historian of the twentieth century, Huston Smith, once referred to it as the "best-kept secret" in history. Many people see that as symbolic or allegorical or just a nice thing, which is not the case. We know that at the time of Jesus, before, during, and after, there were recipes floating around. And you find terracotta heads that could or could not be representative of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses to whom the mysteries of Eleusis were dedicated. Now, I mentioned that Brian and I had become friends. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. CHARLES STANG: Yeah. I am excited . CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. They minimized or completely removed the Jewish debates found in the New Testament, and they took on a style that was more palatable to the wider pagan world. So perhaps there's even more evidence. And what, if any, was the relationship between those ancient Greeks and the real religion of the earliest Christians, who might call the paleo-Christians. So Gobekli Tepe, for those who don't know, is this site in southern Turkey on the border with Syria. President and CEO, First Southeast Financial Corp and First Federal Savings and Loan Director, Carolina First Bank and The South Financial Group I can't imagine that there were no Christians that availed themselves of this biotechnology, and I can't imagine-- it's entirely plausible to me that they would mix this biotechnology with the Eucharist. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. He was wronged by individuals, allegedly. A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. "@BrianMuraresku with @DocMarkPlotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More" Please enjoy! Nage ?] It's something that goes from Homer all the way until the fall of the Roman Empire, over the course of well more than 1,000 years. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving